Mar 26, 2024
Are you curious about psilocybin (magic mushrooms)? There's alot of compelling research being published about their potentialbenefits, but are they right for you? Today I talk with MichelleHarrell, a licensed facilitator in Oregon, who has beenfacilitating sessions for the past six months. We talk about howpsilocybin can help you, how to make the most of your experience,and a lot more.
Michelle Harrell is a licensed psilocybin facilitatorwho is committed to helping others connect with their ownself-healing capabilities, creating deeper connection to self andsource. Prior to training as a psilocybin facilitator, Michelleenjoyed a successful international corporate career in HumanResources and Information Technology. For over 20 years, Michellesupported global teams through various change programs. Through herwork, she realized how difficult change is for most people and sheenjoyed supporting others through their own life transitions, bigand small. Living and working abroad while raising two childrenoverseas provided an opportunity to work with individuals of allbackgrounds, cultures, and nationalities. She aims to bring thispassion for diversity and personalized service to her facilitationpractice.
Learn more about Michelle:
Website: https://www.treeoflifefacilitation.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/treeoflifefacilitator/
Learn more about Karin
Website: https://www.drcalde.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach/
TRANSCRIPT
Intro:
Karin: This is Love Is Us,Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, KarinCalde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen ourrelationships, explore who we are in those relationships, andexperience a greater sense of love and connection with those aroundus, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology,practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my ownhealing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helpingindividuals and couples with their relationships and personalgrowth. If you want to experience more love in your life andcontribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our worldtoday, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.
Episode:
Karin: Hello everybody. Lastweek, I announced that I was finishing up my training to become alicensed psilocybin facilitator in Oregon, currently the only statein the country where that's now legal, although Colorado is not farbehind. And this week I thought I'd invite my colleague MichelleHarrell to speak with me. Now, for those of you who don't know whatpsilocybin is, I recommend you go listen to my previous episodewhere I give you the details. Michelle is currently licensed andhas been facilitating sessions with people for the last six monthsor so, and I anticipate having my license by late May or earlyJune, depending on how long it takes for the Oregon Healthauthority to process my application. So just a few things we talkabout on today's episode include the ways that psilocybin can behelpful for you and your relationships, how you can get the mostout of a psilocybin experience, how likely it is that you'll havethe experience that you really want for yourself. And Michelle alsotalks about some of the changes that she has seen in her clientsafter they've had a psilocybin session. So I hope this episodegives you a better feel for whether or not this might be anexperience that you might want to have. Michelle is currentlytaking clients, so if you think you might want to work with her, goahead and check out her information, which I'll put in the shownotes. I really appreciate the response that I've gotten so far tomy announcement. I've had a lot of people who have expressedinterest, so I'm planning on offering a free informational webinarabout psilocybin. So let me know if that's something that you wouldbe interested in attending. Send me a message on Instagram whereI'm @theloveandconnectioncoach, and please share this episode withothers who might appreciate it. All right, thanks for being here.And here we go.
[02:46] Michelle: Welcome,Michelle. Thank you, Karin. Thanks for having me.
[02:50] Karin: I'm so glad tohave you. I want to dive into how we met and how this all started,but why don't you just start by telling us where you are in theworld?
[03:02] Michelle: Sure. I amin Portland, Oregon. And yeah, that's also where I work. And I loveit here.
[03:11] Karin: And what keepsyou here?
[03:13] Michelle: What keepsme here? I just love Oregon. I think it's beautiful. I love thegreen spaces that we have. I love the fact that we have mountainsand forests and ocean and even desert. It's just a beautiful partof the country to live in. I love the Pacific Northwest. And, yeah,I can't imagine myself leaving anytime soon.
[03:36] Karin: Yeah, I loveit for all those same reasons, too.
[03:40] Michelle: Yeah.
[03:41] Karin: And we met ata business networking event last year.
[03:47] Michelle: We did?Yes.
[03:49] Karin: And you got megoing on my.
[03:51] Michelle: Currentproject, which I love. So it's really fun to have you.
[03:58] Karin: Here and tohear about what you're now doing for work.
[04:02] Michelle: Yeah. So Iam a state licensed psilocybin facilitator. Anyone who may not knowwhat the word psilocybin means, those are psychedelic mushrooms.And Oregon is the first state to actually legalize any kind ofpsychedelic program in the United States. So it's really excitingto be a pioneer in this new industry that is slowly emerging.Colorado will be the next state to go live with their legal programin January of 2025. So, yeah, Oregon was first, and I launched mybusiness in September and have not looked back since. It's beenfantastic.
[04:42] Karin: And I justwant to say that of course, there is a thriving undergroundpsychedelic community, but this is just a little bit different. Andit's a way to kind of influence and shape how we do things goingforward because I don't think that Colorado will be the last.
[05:02] Michelle: I thinkyou're right there.
[05:04] Karin: This is thebeginning of a trend, or hopefully not a trend, but of how we dothings going forward. And I'm really hopeful that we can do itwell. There's lots of things I think we can still work on, but,yeah, I.
[05:20] Michelle: Think oneof the advantages of being first is we get to kind of see whatworks and what doesn't work. And then one of the disadvantages ofgoing first is trying to figure this out where no one has in aspace where no one has been before and making sure that clients aresafe, that facilitators are safe, and that everybody can get accessto these kinds of services when they need them is the biggestchallenge. But yeah, it's been going well. I think the majority ofmy clients are from out of state, which is surprising. I knew thatI would have some out of state clients when I started, but I neverexpected the majority of them to be from out of state. So who areneeding these services are finding us, which is pretty amazing.
[06:15] Karin: So great. Andhow did you come to do this work?
[06:20] Michelle: Well, Ithink like many people, I came to do this work through my ownexperiences with psychedelics. I was going through some normal lifetransition stuff back in 2019. I was starting to date for the firsttime after my divorce, which was in 2017. And I was also startingto feel a little bit cynical and discouraged and unhappy in mycareer after being in corporate spaces for many, many years andreally just kind of in search of, like, what's next. My kids aregetting older. They're about to be an empty nester. My youngestchild is a junior in high school. My oldest is already in college.And so just all these kind of big transition questions that many ofus have in midlife were kind of on top of my mind. And then Ihappened to meet someone who introduced mushrooms into my life andhad some amazing experiences with mushrooms myself, which reallywere transformative and helped me to find forgiveness from allkinds of things and processing of past traumas and things that weall have in life, and really helped me to find focus about what Iwanted to do going forward. And so once I had those experiences, Iwanted to know more. I dove into all the research. I read everybook, I watched every podcast and show that I could find onpsilocybin and was just very fascinated with the success rates thatmany of the research trials were having. And my biggest inspirationwas the Johns Hopkins research that they were doing with terminallyill cancer patients. And the success rates there were quiteastounding, with folks really coming to terms with their ownmortality and the anxiety and depression that is involved withthat. And my own stepfather passed away in 2014 of prostate cancer.And it was just really difficult for the whole family, butespecially my mother. In the same year. My grandfather also passedaway. So my mom lost both her father and her husband in the sameyear, and I lost my grandfather and my stepfather. And it was justreally tough on the whole family. And my mom dealt with depressionafterwards and grief. And I just thought, man, if we had knownabout these little mushrooms back in 2014 or had access to them,maybe things could have been different, right? Maybe we could havedealt with that situation differently. And I just think it'sbeautiful if you can help someone really appreciate the life theyhave left, rather than focusing on the death that is impending, Ijust think that's a beautiful gift that you could give somebody.And so that's really what inspired me to want to get involved. Andthen in the fall of 22, my boyfriend actually texted me and said,hey, I just saw in the news that they're going to be issuinglicenses starting in January. You've been talking about it kind oflike, where are you going to put your money? Where your mouth is?Kind of thing? And so I decided to do it. I dove in and decided toleave my job that I was at at that time and dove in full time. AndI know that was a very privileged position that I was in, that Iwas able to afford to do that. I know not everyone can do that, butthat's kind of how I started.
[09:47] Karin: Oh, wonderful.And I love that you mentioned the studies that looked at howpsilocybin can help people with end of life. I found that the mosttouching out of all the things that they can really help us with,and there are many, that really affected me deeply as well. Peoplecan really see the beauty of life and appreciate what they haveleft and the people that are in their life for that time, ratherthan on the fear.
[10:15] Michelle: Yeah,exactly. But also while really recognizing the fear because it'sreal, that's one thing we all are going to do, is we're all goingto die. We just don't know when. Right. But I always challenge myclients, no matter what their intentions are or what they're hopingto gain from these experiences, I always challenge them to try tofind gratitude. Even in the darkest moments or in their greatestfears, can they find gratitude as well? And I think that withimpending death, on the one hand, of course, many of us don't knowwhen we're going to die, so it's very easy for us to just ignorethat. But if we know we're going to die, in a way, it can be agift. Like how many of us get to really say goodbye to our lovedones before they die, because we don't know when it's going tohappen. But if you know when it's going to happen, that couldactually be a really beautiful thing, to end life with dignity inlife, with closure and all the things that come with that. So it'sjust all about how you.
[11:16] Karin: Look atthings, and so it can help with end of life anxiety. What are someof the other things that psilocybin can help people with? Based onresearch or experience or what you've witnessed.
[11:29] Michelle: Yeah. Imean, the number one reason that my clients seek me out is fordepression and anxiety. That is by far the number one reason thatmany folks reach out to me. But I've also had a handful of folksthat are dealing with trauma or PTSD. I've had folks who aredealing with addiction, rehabilitation or recovery. I've had folkswho are just looking for a mystical or religious experience orspiritual experience, and then a handful of folks who are also justreally curious and looking for just, like, heart opening orcuriosity or added playfulness or creativity in their lives. Soreally, there's no right or wrong reason. I think if you're calledto do this, you should explore it regardless of the reason. But forsure, the number one reason is anxiety and depression. And it'sdefinitely a tool that it's not going to fix everything, it's notgoing to cure everything. It's not going to give you all theanswers to all the questions you've ever had. Nothing's that easy.But it definitely can be a catalyst to open new perspectives, newinsights, new ways of looking at yourself and looking at the world.And that often helps people shift out of these negative thoughtloops that we all kind of get into in our own head. Right?Yeah.
[13:06] Karin: And the way Ilook at it is that it kicks off your work.
[13:10] Michelle: Exactly.Yeah. No, you're 100%. And I tell people that all the time that thereal work starts after. With integration, for sure.
[13:19] Karin: Yeah, becauseyou can learn a lot during a session, but then it's about how do Iintegrate this into my life?
[13:28] Michelle: Exactly.And how do I cultivate and maintain this newfound perspective ornewfound insights and build new habits, build new routines formyself?
[13:39] Karin: How might ithelp people with their relationships?
[13:43] Michelle: Where do westart? It starts with self love. Number one. That's been my answerbefore I knew about mushrooms. If you don't love yourself, it'svery difficult to love another. And I think that that is a commonstruggle that connects all humans, that we all struggle with selflove and self worth. And I think until you can really healyourself, it's very difficult to have a healthy relationship. And Iknow it's very cliche, but it's true. Hurt people. Right. And so aslong as you're hurting and you're not fully aligned with your truthand with your self worthiness and your self love, then again, it'svery difficult to offer that to somebody else. To me, the base of agood relationship starts with you, right? Not with the other.
[14:42] Karin: Right?Absolutely. And do you ever see couples?
[14:47] Michelle: I do, yeah.I love working with couples. I have not actually had a coupleactually do a session together yet. I know that some that have withother facilitators, but I have definitely had couples where they dosessions back to back. And when a couple reaches out, that's one ofthe first things that we talk about is, what are your intentionsfor this work? And if the intentions have something to do with theactual relationship, or maybe they just want to have an experiencetogether as well, then I think it's fantastic to do it together.However, most of the time, as you start talking with a couple, theyrealize very quickly, oh, no, I really need to work on myself. Iwant to do this or that or the other. And then if that's the case,I do recommend doing it yourself, because, again, if you're both inthe room can be a little bit distracting, and you might tend towant to put your focus on the other rather than on yourself. Andthis kind of work is very internal and very internal work. And sowhen other people are in the room, it may be a little distractingand you might end up putting your energy somewhere else rather thanworking on your own intention.
[16:04] Karin: Yeah. And asyou know, as part of our education in becoming psilocybinfacilitators, we do a research project. And so mine has been onrelationships and how this can help people in long term romanticrelationships specifically. And there is a lot of good data comingout in support of psilocybin for relationships. Research so far isshowing that it really helps with empathy and communication andsexual satisfaction and function, openness and openness to newexperiences together, also a spiritual connection to one another.So there are some really exciting things and exciting researchthat's continuing to be done so we can learn more. But, yeah, it'slooking really good for helping people in that area as well.
[17:02] Michelle: Yeah. No, Imean, anecdotally, I think just in my own experiences as well, ithelped improve my relationships, not only my romanticrelationships, but when you talk about communication and thingslike that, I'm much more able. And many of my clients describe thisafter their experiences in some way, shape or form, that it helpsgive you space to kind of view yourself and your ego and thingsthat may not serve you. Right. It's not to say that your normaltriggers and your normal behaviors might still flare after asession, right. Because we are habitual creatures. But when thosethings happen, after you've had an experience like this, you'remuch more able to take a pause and kind of go, wait a second, like,what's going on here? I feel my anxiety flaring, or I feel mytriggers being triggered. But give yourself pause to actuallychoose a different course of action or a different reaction. One ofthe very big common themes that I see with many clients and myselfincluded, is some kind of acceptance and surrender of what will be,will be, and how can I actually choose a different reaction. Andthe only thing that I really control is myself. Right. I think manyfolks come into this work. The biggest struggle for most of myclients is the surrender piece, because it can be very scary,especially people who've never done any kind of psychedelics. Itcan be very scary for them the first time. Even if they want to doit, they're very nervous and anxious about it. And this perceivedlack of control that they might have during the session, it can bevery scary. But I tend to try to coach and talk with them inpreparation about surrender and about what that looks like and whatthat means, and the fact that we really aren't in control ofanything other than ourselves. We're not in control of otherpeople. We're not in control of the weather. We're not in controlof any kind of outside influences. All we can control is our ownreactions and our own emotions, to a point. And I think that thatbecomes something afterwards, through integration, that peoplebecome very aware of and are much more able to kind of sit withtheir own feelings in a moment where anxiety might be flaring ortheir normal reactions are coming up and they can kind of go, wait,why am I reacting like this? What's going on underneath thisanxiety? And how can I choose a different path? And that's allabout integration. But that really is, in a nutshell, what a lot offolks find.
[19:50] Karin: I imagine thatwhen people come to you, they're seeking a certain kind ofexperience, and yet, do people always get the experience that theywant?
[20:00] Michelle: No. I mean,yes and no, but, yeah, that's, again, a really huge part of ourpreparation time together is helping them and coaching them toreally look at themselves pretty deeply and try to really be honestabout where their ego might be tied to certain outcomes andexpectations. I think, on the one hand, it's great that we'rehaving this culture shift around psychedelics. And there's so muchout there in the media and podcasts and TV shows and Netflix.There's so much out there that people can watch and see and hearabout others experiences. And so I think that's fantastic to bewell informed. And obviously, it's helping to shift the culture tobe more accepting of these types of medicines, but it also kind ofcan set expectations in people's minds. And we do love to compareourselves to others, and we love to say, oh, I want that kind ofexperience. And sometimes your experience can be very negative in away. Not negative, but very. Can be a struggle, can be dark. Right.And yet the folks that have those kind of dark experiences andstruggles almost always come out the other end saying that they'reglad they went through it, that they feel like there was light atthe end of the tunnel, that there was love and joy and all thethings that many people experience when they do a psychedelic, andyet they had to go through that struggle to get to that light.Right. And so it's not always easy for my clients, and some reallydo struggle during the session. A lot of emotions can come up forpeople, and sometimes things come up for people that they don'texpect at all, that we didn't talk about at all during prep, wasnot part of their intention. And that's part of the preparationthat we do together is really preparing them for the unexpected andpreparing them to trust that process and to trust that they'regoing to be okay no matter what happens during the session.
[22:16] Karin: Yeah, I thinkit's so important to talk about that because a lot of the coveragethat we see in the media and in books talks about how wonderful andhow powerful and how life changing and. Yes, yes. And.
[22:32] Michelle: Right.Yeah.
[22:33] Karin: It can bereally hard. And not everyone has a great experience, and a lot ofpeople don't get the experience that they're necessarily hopingfor, although you will hear people saying yes, but you will getwhat you need.
[22:48] Michelle: Exactly.Yeah. Just like the Rolling Stones say, you might not get what youwant, but you'll get what you know for sure. And mindset is soimportant going into this, and our mind is so powerful that you canactually stop yourself from having an experience as well, even on areally good high dose. If a client doesn't feel safe, if a clientis not ready to look at their own stuff with honest honesty andaccountability, if they are somebody who's often looking outsidethemselves for answers or blaming things outside of themselves fortheir situation, sometimes they're not ready for this. And Iactually have turned down clients, potential clients, I should say,because I didn't feel like they were ready to really do the work.And I'm not in this to make money. I mean, of course I have to makemoney, but it's not my number one goal. My number one goal is tohelp people help themselves and find healing. And if I don't reallythink you're ready to do the work necessary, then honestly, it's awaste of their money, their time and mind. Right. And so I willsometimes advise people that maybe they need to wait six monthsbefore they think about this, and that isn't always the answer thatpeople like to have. Yeah. So that's difficult sometimes, but,yeah, at the end of the day, if somebody spends this much of timeand money and then they come out the other end with a less thansatisfactory experience, that's not doing anybody any goodeither.
[24:29] Karin: Yeah, no, andI appreciate that so much because this is an investment for peopleof time and energy and money, and we want people to have a goodoutcome. And so what can people do to prepare and be ready for thiskind of deep work?
[24:47] Michelle: Yeah, Imean, definitely the clients who really take the time to sit andspend with preparation, really thinking about their intentions andthen examining those intentions. So what I often coach clients issit down and just write down everything that comes to mind. Don'tedit yourself, don't judge yourself. Just write down everything youthink you are hoping to get out of this. Right. And then go back tothat maybe a couple of days later, and then look at it and try tothink, okay, where's my ego tied to some of these? Do I haveexpectations around? Well, if this doesn't happen, then this was awaste of time. Or, I want my experience to be all butterflies andlight and joy. Be honest with yourself, because I think that is thefirst step in preparing your mindset for an experience like this.And it's okay to say, yeah, I want it to be like this, X, y or z,but then be okay with the fact that you might not get everythingyou want. And that's really the key, because, again, you can'tcontrol it and you can't guide it. And I think the clients who dotry to control and guide it and steer it, it continually slipsaway. Right. Sometimes with women, especially men, don'tnecessarily maybe understand this example or metaphor, but I thinkwomen definitely do. It's like trying to chase an org*sm. You can'treally chase an org*sm. The more you try to get there or thinkabout it, the harder it is to achieve, a lot of times. So if youcan relax and really be in your body and be present, things justhappen as they naturally do. And it's very similar with apsilocybin experience. If you're really trying to force somethingand guide it and steer it, it just keeps slipping out of your hand.Yeah.
[26:44] Karin: And that canbe really challenging, especially for people who have that need tobe in control, have that need to be right. They're not used to selfreflection or dealing with emotions. They push emotions away. Thosefolks are more likely to have more challenging experiences or notreally even get off the ground.
[27:09] Michelle: Yeah, 100%.I have had clients that kind of failed to launch, for sure. Andnine times out of ten, it's one of those things that you justmentioned that they do like to be in control, and they get thisfalse sense of security from being in control. But at the end ofthe day, that's not going to accomplish what they're hoping to gainfrom this experience. So it's very unfortunate when that happens.And then I've had clients who, unfortunately, are on SSRIs orthings like that that can sometimes interfere with this medicine.And so we always try to take that into account and doseappropriately, but every once in a while, not complete failure tolaunch, but less of an experience than they were hoping.
[27:56] Karin: Yeah. And I'mglad you mentioned SSRIs, because I had been under the impressionfor a number of years that people on SSRIs could not have apsilocybin experience. But that is actually not true, is it?
[28:07] Michelle: Oh, no.I've had several clients that are on SSRIs actually have reallygood experience. So there's, like, the science side of it, and thenthere's the art, the art and science of it when it comes to dosing.And one thing that we do a lot, especially with clients that are onSSRIs or are dealing with addiction, because they tend to havehigher tolerance as well, is we usually employ booster shot orbooster shots. Booster doses, I mean. And so we'll start with abase dose that is typically higher than other folks who are not onSSRIs. So we start higher already knowing that that's the case. Butthen we often have them purchase booster doses ahead of time. Andthe way that works in Oregon is you have to decide within the firsthour whether or not you're going to consume that booster dose. Butthat is a really good tool to help, kind of. It's like a plan Bbackup plan. In case that initial dose is not strong enough, thenthey have the option of taking an additional dose to try to getthem over that bump. And that tends to work, quite honestly, thatworks a lot of times, and it also gives them a feeling of moresafety and more control. So I've even employed it with clients whoare not on any SSRIs or don't have any kind of contraindications.The client who needs to feel really safe because they're veryanxious about the process. That can also be another great tool justto help give them a little more feeling of control of the situationso that they can kind of go slow. Right. Start low and go slow.That's a mantra for us in this industry a lot of times.
[29:51] Karin: Yeah, that'sreally important. Thank you.
[29:54] Michelle: Well, Ijust would add as well for the client who's very anxious and verycontrolling. Sometimes they need more than one session as well. AndI have had clients come out the other end who were extremelynervous and kind of uptight about the situation, who have said, nowthat I know what to expect, I definitely want to come back and doit again, because I think next time I'll be able to really lean inand surrender more. Sometimes that happens. You just need to do ita couple of times before you can get to the real deep work. Andthat's part of their process.
[30:29] Karin: And in thosecases, you start out with a lower dose the first time, and thenmaybe the next time you have a higher dose.
[30:36] Michelle: It justkind of depends on the client. Again, it depends on what theirsituation is. Are they on any Ssris? Are they heavy cannabis users,alcohol users? Are they very controlling? I take all those thingsinto account when thinking about dosing, and dosing is always verypersonal, and I like to do my first preparation session with aclient, get to know them, talk through their intentions, set andsetting that kind of thing, and come back to the second prepconversation with my recommended dose. And then it's a conversationbetween us. And, of course, it's ultimately the client's decision.It's their decision about what they put in their body. But most ofthem are looking for me to make a recommendation, because they lookto me to be the expert in that space. And I take a lot of thingsinto account, their personality, things that we talked about duringprep, but also all the contraindications that might be in place.So, yeah, it just kind of very depends. It depends on the person,and each client is different.
[31:39] Karin: And what's thetiming when you think that someone could use a couple of sessions?Like how much time in between?
[31:46] Michelle: Yeah.Again, there's no right or wrong answers in this space. I thinkthere are some guidelines and stuff, but I think the thing that youlearn from doing this work and taking this type of medicine is tostart to trust yourself more and to really listen to your own innervoice and inner instincts. And so, again, it depends, right. Itcould be like somebody wants to do it a month from now again, orthey're like, you know, I think I want to come back in six months.I need to do some more work. Obviously, if they do have some realinsights in the first session, I do always recommend they take timeto try to integrate those first. Like, really spend some timeintegrating what you've already come out with before you try to gointo another second session. If they completely failed to launch orthey had a very mild experience, it might be beneficial for them tocome back sooner and do it again while it's still a little bitfresh in their minds. And they still kind of can recall how theyfelt going in the first time, because a lot of times, the secondtime, they're more able to surrender and more able to let go. So itreally just kind of depends on the individual and theircirc*mstance.
[33:00] Karin: And why isintention setting so important?
[33:03] Michelle: Yeah, Ithink intentions. Otherwise, why are you doing it? Right. So Ithink it's really important to think about what you're hoping togain from this, and that really starts the process of that innerwork. I've had many clients, the ones who take it seriously and whor*ally spend time working on themselves and working on thepreparation for this experience, often start to have insights evenlong before their journey day. I've had many clients tell me duringour second prep call, oh, I had this dream, and all this stuff frommy childhood came up in my dream, and we talked through it, andthey start to find insights already ahead of time because theirbrains are already working on these things in the background.Right. It's amazing how powerful our emotions and brains can be. Sojust, it's like maybe the placebo effect or what have you, thatonce they've made that decision for themselves, that they want towork on themselves, things start to happen. So that's a big part ofit. I also tell clients, set your intentions and then let them go.Don't hold on to them too tightly, because that's, again, when westart to try to want to steer it and guide it and force a certainoutcome, which is not how this works. So setting your intentions isextremely important, but then at the same time, releasing them andletting them go and saying, okay, what will be, will be. But thisis what I'm hoping to gain. That's very powerful. You can dothat?
[34:41] Karin: Yeah. And I'lljust add that it comes down, really to mindset, too, because theysay that has a more powerful effect than even how much youtake.
[34:54] Michelle: 100%.
[34:55] Karin: So what you'rethinking about your emotional state, your intentions. All thosethings have a profound effect on your actual students.
[35:05] Michelle: 100%. Youcan definitely talk your way out of an experience in your mind ifyou want. Yeah. I had one client who, honestly, she couldn't getthere. It was very unfortunate. I had so much empathy for her, butshe couldn't let go of that control and she just never launched andshe was very upset by it. And it's very frustrating and hard for meas their facilitator to watch because as much as I can help prepareand coach and guide you in preparation, I also have no control overwhat happens the day of when you take the psilocybin. And so ifyou're really not able to let go of that control and let go of yourego, wanting to feel safe, then you can definitely talk your wayout of it, even on a very high dose. Yeah, which is quite amazing.I mean, it tells you how powerful our minds are, which is exactlywhy people are seeking this out in the first place. It really doescreate neuroplasticity in your brain, helps make new connections inyour brain, but ultimately you have the power to help that happenor not make it happen, which is amazing.
[36:31] Karin: Yeah, it isamazing. And I've had a range of experiences, but I have had thatexperience where I took pretty high dose and I couldn't let go thatday. And there were some reasons for that that I understand now.And it's helped me dive into the kind of work that I needed to do.So ultimately it was still helpful.
[36:52] Michelle: Well,exactly. That's what I try to. I always say the experience you haveis the one that's meant for you. And there is learning in everyexperience, whether you kind of qualify it as bad or good, doesn'treally matter. There's still a lesson to be found. And for her, Idon't know if she found it, but for her, this particular client, Ithink her lesson was in the fact that you can't control everythingand that if you really want to do this work, you're going to haveto trust and you're going to have to let go. And when you're readyto do that, then maybe the lessons will be there for you. But shehas to get there on her own.
[37:36] Karin: Yeah. Can yougive us some examples of intentions?
[37:41] Michelle: Oh, sure.Common kind of themes around intentions have to do withforgiveness, acceptance, sense of purpose, healing. Obviouslyhealing from past events or past relationships or past trauma.Appreciation and gratitude is another one. Folks who are reallystruggling with depression and anxiety often struggle to find joy,struggle to find bliss. So just that in and of itself can be agreat intention. I want to experience more joy. I want toexperience more bliss. I want to find more gratitude in my dailylife. But, yeah, I mean, those are very common ones. Yeah. Sense ofpurpose, meaning of life, these big, ethereal, big questions.Right. Those come up a lot for people trying to understand why I'mdepressed, trying to understand why I have so much anxiety. That'sa lot of the intention setting that I see with people.
[38:58] Karin: And what aresome of the changes that you've seen in your clients?
[39:02] Michelle: Oh, wow.Gosh, so many. I've had clients who come out with completeperspective shifts. I would say about 40% of my clients have thesereally big, kind of knock you over your head kind of wow,transformations, right. And they come out like, oh, my gosh, mywhole world's turned upside down. I see things so differently. Justcomplete 180. And then the other 40% tend to have insights andthings, but it's not quite as big. Right. They're like small. It'salmost like planting seeds and then you have to water those andgrow those and cultivate those. And I actually think sometimes thatgroup has an easier time afterwards with integration than the firstgroup. And it's funny because most people want the first kind ofexample. Most people come in and like, I want to just come outcompletely new and with all this new perspective and huge insights,but that can really throw people off center and throw them througha loop and can be very difficult and challenging afterwards tointegrate because it's like, okay, how do I go back to my Monday,nine to five, now that I see the world so differently? How am Igoing to even function in this world now?
[40:26] Karin: Right.
[40:27] Michelle: That can bea lot harder. So it's funny when people, most clients want that,but many of them don't. And then I set 40% of each and then theother 20%, unfortunately, sometimes don't have huge transformationsor have a mild experience, as I mentioned. And so those are thefolks that sometimes would probably benefit from coming back anddoing when they're ready.
[40:55] Karin: Yeah. And Ilove the advice that I've heard that it's a good idea if you had abig experience or even just a smaller experience, not to make anymajor changes in your life for at least a month afterwards.
[41:11] Michelle: Yes. I telleveryone that, don't go out and quit your job or sell your house orleave a relationship or get into a relationship, whatever. Don'tmake big decisions directly following. Take time to actually sitwith what came up for you. Take time to try to integrate it. Andthen it might be that you do want to leave your job. It might bethat you do realize how unhappy you are in a relationship or whathave you, or that that person is the one and you want to propose orwhatever it is. Right. But take time to sit with that and make aplan. Don't just jump from one thing to the next without any kindof plan, because. Yeah, that probably won't turn out how youlike.
[41:57] Karin: Right. Andpeople are pretty vulnerable for a while afterwards, and they'remaking a lot of changes in that time and kind of finding their feetagain.
[42:09] Michelle: Exactly.Yeah, exactly. Because it can throw you, like I said, it can throwyou off center, and it can be a little destabilizing, which, again,can feel scary, but can also feel very exciting. And ultimately, iswhat people are seeking. Right. People are seeking to change howthey are living, to change how they're thinking about things. Butwith that, change comes work and comes, that can create a wholebunch of new feelings right. Around anxiety and things like that.So that's why, again, integration is so important.
[42:51] Karin: And even ifyou don't have a great experience. Right, right. Or the one thatyou wanted or if you had not much of an experience, it could stillreally be important.
[43:01] Michelle: Especially,I would say, yeah. Because trying to examine what happened for youduring that experience and why it could lead to some insights aboutyourself, if you're honest with yourself. Some people aren't readyto be honest with themselves, though. That can be a problem.
[43:21] Karin: And thatintegration process can take a lifetime. Sometimes people reallyneed to take a lot of time to fully understand these experiencesand what happened to them and what they can gain from them.
[43:36] Michelle: 100%. Yeah.And many clients report having further insights the weeksfollowing. I think scientifically, they say that. Thatneuroplasticity in your brain lasts for about 14 days following anexperience. So they kind of call this the halo effect. And if youpay attention. Right. If clients are paying attention andpracticing mindfulness, trying to be present with themselves, thenthey do often report finding further insights. It's like buildingblocks. You kind of start with something. You might come out withsome real profound perspectives or insights from your session, butthen as you sit with them and cultivate them and pay attention tothem, it's like you find more and more, and they kind of build uponeach other, and that's when real change and transformation happens,which is beautiful. Yeah. Now, many clients, many common themescoming out are around forgiveness of themselves, of others,acceptance of the fact that we're not in control accepting what wecan and can't control and really being, again, more aware of ourown triggers, our own behaviors and where that anxiety stems from.Because anxiety is often felt in the body and is like a fight orflight kind of situation. But when you sit with it and you start toexamine it, really, it usually is some kind of deep seated fear orsadness or something going on. And anxiety is often about things inthe future with worrying. And we imagine all these doomsdayscenarios in our head, right? And so I often challenge clients tojust really examine and feel back those layers about what is goingon underneath this surface level anxiety, what is happeningunderneath, what's the real fear. And if they can manage to sitwith that and be curious without judgment, without beratingthemselves, without all the negative self talk, then they canreally discover things about themselves that will help them changegoing forward. And I tell people, many clients afterwards aresurprised. They go back to their daily lives, and they come outwith this amazing, joyful experience and feeling a sense of onewith nature and the universe and love and God and all the things.Then they go back to their daily lives, and then we talk inintegration. And they say, but I'm still feeling anxious. I went towork, and I still had that. One colleague still triggered me. Istill felt angry. And I'm like, well, of course, you're stillhuman, right? So I think their expectations sometimes, like, allthese things will go away after they don't go away. But almost allof my clients say that they find newfound space again, to kind ofsit with that and look at it and go, okay, well, what's going on?Why am I getting upset? Why am I getting anxious? Why am I gettingangry? That kind of mindfulness and presence and ability to sitwith their own emotions is where they start to cultivate newinsights and change.
[46:51] Karin: It reminds meof so much of the buddhist practices and meditation and mindfulnesswork and how all of that is really related to this kind of work.And diving into some of that ahead of time can also better prepareyou to do the psilocybin or the psychedelic.
[47:12] Michelle: As well,which is really what intention setting is, right? I mean, if youthink about it, like, sitting down and thinking about yourintentions is being present with yourself, is being mindful. And soit really starts from day one. If you're preparing for a sessionlike this, you're already practicing mindfulness. In the beginning,we might not call it like that, but that is really what it is. It'ssitting down, taking time with yourself, which unfortunately, inthis world, we don't do enough of. I think so many people were justexisting. So many people are just existing. They kind of have theirdaily routines. They get up, they go to work, they come home, theydo the same thing. Watch TV until they fall asleep or they'rescrolling at the Internet and Instagram and TikTok mindlessly. Andthere's just so many easy ways for us to distract ourselves and tocompartmentalize and numb ourselves.
[48:09] Karin: Check out alife.
[48:10] Michelle: Yeah. Andit's very easy to do in this world that we live in now. It's justso easy because we're not even bored anymore. Step into anelevator. Watch everybody. Most everybody, as soon as you step inthe phone, come out and everyone's looking at their phone andthere's no eye contact with people anymore. That's the world welive in. And I myself am guilty of those things. But maybesometimes leave your phone at home or leave it in your pocket andstand in line at the grocery store and don't blot your phone andjust look around. Just little things like that can change the wayyou start to connect with yourself. And for integration practices,I always try to help a client find some kind of mindfulnesspractice, stillness practice that they can cultivate and add intotheir routine. And it doesn't have to be meditation. It doesn'thave to be yoga, which I think a lot of folks think that's what I'mgoing to suggest a lot of times. And some people just don't likemeditation, are not good at it. And I'm like, you don't have to domeditation. Maybe it's taking a walk with your dog, but leavingyour phone at home. Maybe it is fishing things that you can dowhere if you are alone and with your own thoughts. But still,sometimes people need to be physically active in order to kind ofcreate this flow state for themselves. But anything that where youcan really sit with yourself and think about be introspectiveworks. It doesn't have to look like one thing.
[49:53] Karin: We nevertalked about microdosing or doing this work in groups, but thoseare also options in Oregon, right?
[50:03] Michelle: Yeah. Yes.And group work can actually be a much more economical andaffordable avenue to this for folks who may not be able to afford aprivate. You know, you obviously have to be comfortable with beingin a group space with other people and other individuals. There's alot of benefits also to group work as far as this sense ofcommunity that is created with the other participants. Andsometimes that can be really empowering for people as well tounderstand and see that they're not alone. What they're feeling,what they're going through, is a common human experience across theboard. Doesn't matter how rich you are, doesn't matter how talentedyou may be, we all are human. We all deal with life and trauma anddepression and anxiety, like everybody. That's a common humanexperience. And so I think there can be some really beautifulthings that happen in a group setting between the individuals thatare open to sharing with each other and connecting with each other.That can build a really nice community for you to lean intoafterwards for integration as well. Can raise some long lastingrelationships, perhaps.
[51:20] Karin: Yeah, I knowthat integration circles or groups are really popular, and they canbe very helpful to people, and that sense of community also ishelpful.
[51:33] Michelle: Yeah. Andthen microdosing. I mean, gosh, where do we start? There's so muchresearch right now happening with microdosing. Everything fromAlzheimer's to fibromyalgia to long COVID to lyme disease, chronic.All kinds of chronic pain and migraine headaches, clusterheadaches, arthritis, you know, just so many, so many applications.The research in those spaces is still quite new, and maybe not asconclusive as some of the bigger for macro dosing, but anecdotally,people are already reporting a lot of benefits that aremicrodosing. I happen to know personally a few people who'vemanaged to wean off some of their SSRIs and have startedmicrodosing to help maintain their mental health and feel 100%better. I also know someone who's terminally ill and was on allkinds of pharmaceuticals and feeling terrible and not having anykind of real quality of life. And he wasn't able to get off all thepharmaceuticals, but he was able to get off many of them and feelsthat he has a much higher quality of life now, even though he'sstill terminally ill, but he feels like what life he has left ismuch of a much higher standard now through microdosing. So there'sjust so many applications for that. And many clients asked about itafter they have a big session.
[53:10] Karin: I just wantedto make sure to mention that this isn't necessarily foreverybody.
[53:16] Michelle: True.
[53:17] Karin: Especiallythose who might have some health conditions. So I don't think itwould be a good idea for us to try to list all of them here,because we're going to miss some things. And the research isinconclusive about a lot of this stuff.
[53:29] Michelle: Verytrue.
[53:30] Karin: It's like ifyou have elevated blood pressure, if you have a history ofschizophrenia in your family, those are just a couple of examplesof situations where it might not be such a great idea. There isalso some research coming out about people who microdose long termand how that might not be a good idea, that it's better to do it inshort doses than it might actually have an effect on your heart ifyou have a predisposition for that. So it's really important to dosome research into this stuff and to look at your own health and totalk to your providers, because a lot of them now are becoming moreinformed about psychedelics, too. Not all of them. So proceed withcaution.
[54:14] Michelle: Thank youfor saying that, because I think that's really important. I alwaysadvise clients to speak with their doctors, therapists,psychiatrists, whoever they may be seeing.
[54:25] Karin: So if there'sone thing that you'd like people to walk away with after listeningto this conversation, what would it.
[54:31] Michelle: Be for me,what was most transformative after my own experiences withmushrooms? For me, it was finding faith and finding the realizationthat I am not in control and that that's okay. In fact, I don'tactually want to be in control. It's a lot to have on yourshoulders. The idea that I can control and steer everything isexhausting because where do you want to spend your energy? And thequality of my relationships has improved across the board with myparents, kids, my partner, my friends. And so I would say the thingthat I would want people to come away with is really, if you thinkif you are struggling with depression, anxiety, trauma, or whathave you, this may be a good option for you. But again, I wouldsuggest you do your research, read all the books, watch thepodcast, that kind of thing. Really get informed. And if you reallythink you're ready to do this work and look at yourself honestlyand do the hard work, then this might be a really good option foryou. It could help you get over that hump of where you've not beenable to kind of make breakthroughs on your own. It's really acatalyst for healing, but the healing itself happens, like yousaid, a lot of times after.
[55:54] Karin: And what roledoes love play in the work that you do?
[55:58] Michelle: Well, Imean, it's another big theme that a lot of people come out with islove of self, love of this world, love of this life. I had aclient. It was fantastic. I had a client a few weeks ago, an olderwoman, and she was coming in and she had done all this really hardwork and preparation. And she really expected her journey to bevery kind of dark and serious because she thought she had all thisstuff to kind of release and get over from her past, and herexperience was just like laughter and joy. She laughed and giggledalmost the entire 4 hours, and during it, she was just like, oh, mygosh, this is not what I expected at all. This is so light andjoyful. And she said, but this is what I needed. She realized, thisis what I need. I've been taking things way too seriously, and Ifully expected this to be hard, but this is beautiful. And she cameout with such a new passion for life and for this next chapter ofher life, she's getting ready to retire, and she was worried aboutthat. And now she gave herself permission to actually ask for helpfrom people. She's somebody who didn't often ask for help becauseshe saw it as a sign of weakness. But now she's like, it's okay toask for help. She often didn't start projects that she wanted to dobecause she didn't know how to do it. And so she would start it andthen she would not finish it. And so now she's like, I'm just soexcited to do these projects, and I realize I don't have to knoweverything in the beginning. I can ask for help. It's just thesekind of newfound perspectives that people come out with create thissense of self love and self confidence in so many of my clientsthat it's just so beautiful to see. So love is always at the core.I think, of some of the healing that takes place. Love of self,mainly, and then forgiveness of others. Forgiveness of people whomay have hurt you in the past doesn't mean that it's okay what theydid. But often people come out with this newfound acceptance ofwhat was, was. I can't change it. I can't change what happened. Butwhat I can do is accept it and move forward and let it go. And Ithink that forgiveness is beautiful. Weight lifted off of manypeople's shoulders after an experience. And to me, that's all aboutlove. So, yeah, I think love's the foundation. Beautiful.
[58:33] Karin: And how canpeople learn more about you?
[58:36] Michelle: So you canfind me on Instagram at Treeoflife facilitator, or my website istreeoflifefilitation.com. I'm also on Facebook and LinkedIn. Youcan find me on LinkedIn under my name, Michelle Harrell. And yeah,I'd be happy to connect with anybody out there who might think thisis right for them.
[58:58] Karin: Before we go,are there any books that you can recommend people read if they wantto learn more? About psychologists and psilocybin.
[59:07] Michelle: Yeah. Howto change your mind by Michael Poland is definitely a good think.You know, gosh, that book, I think, on its own, kind of triggeredthis cultural shift around psychedelics. It's also by the sametitle. There's a series on Netflix. If you're not a reader, you canalso watch it on Netflix. But, gosh, there's so many books outthere. There's so many. But that's the one that comes to mind justbecause it's one that seems more accessible for a lot of think, youknow, he does a really good job of kind of presenting it in a verymainstream kind of way that many people can relate to and digesteasily. Yeah, great. Yeah.
[59:54] Karin: And I lovedthat, too. That definitely got me going. I will say that over time,I came to realize he really kind of skipped over some of theimportant cultural history behind some of these medicines, whichwas disappointing. But there's so much great information in thatbook.
[01:00:11] Michelle: Thereis. And thank you for saying that. I would say we're having thisculture shift in the west about psychedelics, but honestly, thesemedicines have been used by indigenous cultures for centuries.We're just catching know. We're catching.
[01:00:31] Karin: Yeah.
[01:00:31] Michelle:Yeah.
[01:00:32] Karin: Well,Michelle, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. Ireally loved it, and I have a feeling that this is going to be apopular one.
[01:00:40] Michelle: Oh,good. Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it immensely and wouldlove to do it again if needed.
[01:00:47] Karin: Great.
[01:00:48] Michelle: Thankyou, Karin. Thanks for having me.
OUTRO:
[01:00:50] Karin: Thanks forjoining us today on Love is us. If you liked the show, I would soappreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions andwould like to follow me on social media, you can find me onInstagram where I'm the love and connection coach. Special thanksto Tim Gorman for my music, Ali Shaw for my artwork, and RossBurdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad youjoined us today because the best way to bring more love into yourlife and into the world is to be love. The best way to be love isto love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspiredtogether.s
